G'Day UFO et al

I still can,t get it to work
Up to the Oscillator works the duty cycle goes from .05 % to 99%
The frequency is about .5khtz
I tried a different coil 5 strands 580 feet of 0.8mm diam all in parallel
1.32 Ohms still no results
Tomorrow I will endevour to find what is the problem must be the wiring of the mosfets?
Everything went cooler by about 1 deg
Let you know results tomorrow
Regards

G'Day Again
When I ran the machine I took some measurements Volts didn't make sense so I used another coil I had it is a 5 filar, 583feet each strand soldered the ends together so all were in parallel measured 1.32 Ohms still did not light the bulb Tried the bulb in the house socket it was OK

When I was running the machine the voltages were as follows
Battery 38.6v the Oscillator recieved always 12.4 v
I measured @ 3 different duty cycles neg probe on Batt neg
" 99% 50% 1.5% "
"Oscillator Out 10.4v, 4.7v, 0.2v "
"Source Bus 10.4v, 4.7v, 0.2v "
"Gate Bus 10.4v, 4.7v, 0.2v "
"Heatsink/Drain 38.6v, 38.6v, 38.6v "
Across Load Pos and Neg
"Before Diodes 0.0v, 0.0v, 0.0v "
"After Diodes 2.8v, 1.9v, 1.6v "


The bulb never even gave a flicker
Regards

Specific mosfet drivers are optimized in several properties for this dedicated task. They can source/sink for short time several amps in order to charge/discharge the gate capacitance suddenly -> this makes FETs fast for professional use.
Imagine a flywheel. It can be accellerated and sustained with very few power (driver standby high or low state). In case of slipping a rod through the spokes it will generate extrodinary forces - for short time! (switching action)
In order to keep our setups cheap and simple with readily available components we decided for LM393 and NE555 components (smaller flywheels). Some of us have no funds left for specialized components. A thorough tradeoff will give suffitient driver properties.
In any case we are short of driving current for optimal drive. We need to spend this restricted ressource with minimum drawback. Therefore we can alter/optimize different parameters.

• The worst driver is if we use one half of LM393 (16mA sink) with a pullup of 10K driving 6 FETS over long thin wires.
• Improve by shorting the wires. And make all grouds out of thick wire!
• In same range range is a LMC/TMC555 (8mA source / sink) Additional improvement by connecting "discharge" pin to output (= double sink capability).
• It is even better if we use both halves of LM393 (32mA sink) in parallel with a common pullup of about 1K.
• Improve drive capability by using a NE555 (200mA source/sink) Additional improvement by connecting "discharge" pin to output (= double sink capability).

Same sequence starts again - but on a much higher performance if you decide to drive single FETs by an dedicated driver each being built in direct vicinity to the FET.
Here a LMC/TMC555 might be OK because it is quite fast and will deliver its bit of current much earlyer than a NE555.

So my hint is to build your driver (whatever setup you choose) from the oscillator separated. Then you have an interchangable building stone for your setup and you can multiply and play with them in order to get optimized results.
If you are happy and own a scope then check the switching time of the FET while replacing the coil by a power resistor (no bulb - it behaves extremely non linear) and post the setup along with measured figures in order to help those with no funds.

Some progress on my circuits.

Kogs
Here is some of the things we ran into when first starting went bad.
1. We had the fets in backwords.
2. Diodes were wrong type or backwords.
3. Too much resistance at pots.
4. It is vary hard to get it tuned in at first with less than 24 volts.
5. Circuit is wired wrong or incomplete.

When you first get a frequency signal thru the coil, (using a small CFL at first), lower the lights in the room. This will help you see a brief flicker in the CFL when you turm pots. It might at first, just flicker one time over the whole pot range and only when turning pot in one direction. Just get that pot that you are turning when you see the lite flicker close to the point where it flickered and stop. Then turn the other pot untill the lite comes a little stronger and longer. Keep going back and forth with each pot untill you wiggle your way to a brighter lite. Once you get the light worked up you can then adjust voltage up or down and when you turn on the switch, it will self start and go from there. It seems as thou when first getting it to run you must work for it but after the circuit has been set up better and run several times, it self starts.
Dana

Hello Larry,

Nice set up!!...it is almost ready to be fired up!!

Now, one thing I most tell you I am seeing at plain sight...in the pictures...

You have the Drain-Sink of Mosfet's way too close to the metal chassis, basically in the back part, therefore, have to make sure it would be very well isolated from ground...or your N-Channel Mosfet's will die the minute you turn on circuit!...Unless you have isolated the Drain to Heat-sink and got Drain from legs of transistors...which is a kind of weaker and not recommended connection for mosfets of High Currents Voltages...I see some white something between walls on back mosfets...can't tell is insulation or the aluminum body.
I always use the aluminum heat sink as Bus Bars to transmit Drain pulsed currents with heavy bolts-connectors.
The other thing I recommend to all, is to ground the POT Body and the walls that hold them together, never to isolate them, because as you just touch them, even being plastic knobs...it will alter the frequency to sky high levels while tuning it.

Other wise I see your set-up very well built Larry, excellent!

Regards

Ufopolitics

Hello Ian,

It does not sound right...Source must be -38V?...If working on N-Channel Mosfet's Source Bus. But then it does not make sense at all to obtain at Drain Bus 38V??!!
The other thing:
You do not have Load power at coil at all Ian!!
Check Positive to Coil with reference to Ground(Source).
Check that you have transferred Ground (Source) wires from circuit to circuit boards with heavy and robust connections and are conducting well.

Your problem is minimum, calm down and relax, you are almost there!

Your problem lies on High Voltage Sourcing-Feeding of the 38 Volts side...Positive or Negative there...are not connected right or wire missing between circuit boards.

Cheers and pleeease let Us know!


Regards


Ufopolitics

Good eyes, but if you look a little closer you will see the reflection off the clear plastic insulator I placed back there. The white stuff you see if thermopaste for better heat transfer.


The pots are mounted on the case which is metal as you observed by the heat sinks. I have 10 turn pots on order for finer tuning. When completely finished all will have a common ground.

Has anyone that is replicating this achieved verifiable radiant yet?
Thanks for your input UFO.

Regards
Larry

Hello Ian,

Ok, in this picture below, I see things that are not correct...but then again, I may be wrong...

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/IMG_0653.jpg

And I can not tell which is Positive which is negative...

Ian and All others replicating this:

Please use color code wiring for electrical connections, do not mix Red with Green, Green is always ground, Red is always Positive. Bright Reds, Orange and Yellows are used for positive, or positive signals...Green, Black...even sometimes Blue are used for grounds or Negatives.
Make sure when you take a shot, a picture of your set-up, you do not have hidden wires that leave the "scene" or "Area of View" and can not be traced at simple sight by looking at pic.

For example Ian, you have a red cable going to a connector (I don't know if next connector where another green wire comes out to mosfet board is connected through the plastic connector to that positive?...red?? Now that green passes through mosfet board under...have no idea if it is or not connected to board underneath...then goes to Coil wire...So, I can only "assume" you will connect the NTE576 in that plastic dual bolted conn..?

I also see a green cable coming out of mosfet's board (bolted) going to "nowhere, infinite"..maybe to Coil?...or is it just ground?

Mosfet's Board should only have three cables...

One is Source Negative direct to Source of Mosfet's legs.
Second wire for Drain, going to one Coil Terminal...then derive Diode -l>- to Lamp.
Third, is the Gate wire from 555 or LM339, or whatever oscillator you may have there...
Now according to your pic, I only see two cables going there, and that is assuming the under board running green cable (Positive?) from connector is going there also...
Now Positive (+) from Source, (Batteries +) have absolutely nothing to do at Mosfet's board...just Negative Source, Drain to Coil, and Gate from Oscillator.

Hope this post helps you trace your problem.


Regards


Ufopolitics


P.D: I know that those color codes that I mentioned above work basically for DC Electricity...As I know in AC the Black is the "Live Wire"...White is Neutral....and Green is ground from receptacles and embodiments chassis.

Great Larry!


However, you know that, am sure...It is BEST to use a Drain Bus Bar (the Heat Sink) to bolt there a solid pulsing Drain out to Coil, rather than from the finer mosfet leg...besides if mosfet gets extremely hot, could do ground through fine ceramic paper as insulation from factory...then Ka-Boom...they are gone...and...I know you do not like fires..till you build that Bunker...

I am used to build them like that because that is the way professionally built Motor Controllers are made...heavy Bus Bars as Drain Outputs...


Regards


Ufopolitics

Hey Dana!!


Great results with CF!!
Sorry I did not get back at ya before!...was busy arguing...
CF has some properties We have no idea how far it will take Us all...
I wrote it before...CF is like a Superconductor for RE...
I have done some testings that are not "possibles" in our Classic Physics...
I conducted the DR Chong Negative Resistor CF Test, as per J Naudin Labs Testings...mine also gave negative resistance values...so this is a fact, CF is a Negative Resistor.
I have wounded magnetic wire around a Hollow Cylinder Mesh of Carbon Fiber...I get absolutely nothing as Radiant Output...and it is not touching anything...as a matter of fact I used tape between wire and CF...

The other test...is just to get your terminals with Radiant output...while bulb is lighting up...then just "touch" a CF Mesh...with or without resin...don't matter...Radiant will go away like magic...bulb will turn off...no Radiant Power even after you not touch the mesh anymore...can't restore the system...by just releasing terminals...must start all over again...She's gone!!

And more tests I have done on this...is fascinating!


Regards


Ufopolitics

UFO,

I have been following along for awhile, but still haven't had any free time to build anything yet. Your comment above really caught my attention. I am extremely interested in seeing your video with the HID lighting.

Is that something you will be posting soon?


Many thanks,

Brent

Hello Brent,

That video has been on my channel for a while...

But here it is a direct link...

LIGHTING HID BULB ASSY WITH RADIANT ENERGY - YouTube

Regards


Ufopolitics

Yes UFO I don't have all the wiring done yet. Drilling and taping the heat sinks for fet drain is still not done yet as neither is the 36V and ground connections or the fet driver lines. Still much to do.

Yes that is common practice and I did that on all devices that need cooling in all the industrial controllers I designed and built, but thanks for the reminder.

Regards
Larry

Ufopolitics
UFO - You are a worry .. LiPo's must be treated with respect and not abused - A good friend of mine badly burned his new home and was lucky to avoid injury by not obeying the rules. We need your expertise here, so stay safe

JohnStone.. Thank you for your recent circuits and explanations. Your attention to detail is amazing.

Larry.. Keep asking questions - we all benefit from the answers .. Being an aeromodeller, you obviously are a good guy. Stay well.

Thanks AmpsVolts!

I have a very nice IR Temp reader...and I keep watching them not getting hot...and if they do, by any chance...I'll run like hell to Larry's Bunker...

Regards

Ufopolitics

G'Day Larry
Looks pretty good setup Looks like a bought one

You remind me of when in the late 60's I went to Data General to learn computer programming there was a class of about 12 and we were taught to write a program and after we finished writing it we gave it to the card punch operator. then when we all got our cards back they were put into the card reader of ar huge computer and if it didn't run we had to debug our program and do it all again.Some of us had to run our program 3 to 6 times to get it running there was one chap that was always last to have his program run it worked first time every time. Mine never worked first time

Regards

UFO
I agree with ampsvolts... we need you around so please be safe.

BTW the bunker is for the batteries and not me... I will be long gone. The fumes from them burning are very bad for you too.

Ampsvolts
Are you an aeromodeler also? You will find me and my work on RCGroups.com in the foamy scratch built section. There I am building among others a foam cargo plane with a 12 foot wing span and 4 electric motors. Till I came across UFO here then all plane projects got shelved in favor of radiant. My build table got turned into an electronic work bench. You will see some of my unfinished projects in the background of some of the pictures I post here.
Well I had a colonoscopy today so most of my day was shot.

Not every one appreciates my questions Ampsvolts.

Thanks Ian, but doubt I will live up to the chap in your story.

Tomorrow I will build a series harness for some liops and build my lipo bunker.

Regards
Larry

Larry,

Work positively with your mind...it has more powers than you could think of...so, stop repeating you have just few time left to live...that is not good at all, you are "programming" yourself, your body to go...from your mind...not good. It creates a series of responses within your Bio, that I would not be able to explain in detail, besides it is not part of this...but please think positively...that will not hurt...but will do good, trust me.

I fly RC Helicopters Larry, and also build them...so when you see my little motors I started playing with...you could make them for your planes...and they will be much longer times on air than you could ever imagine...
So do not worry...you will get to go back to it soon...

Regards

Ufopolitics

P.D: Did you ever found out about the "Sangre De Grado" I told you?
Please do.

Afraid so Larry, been at it since the 50s - dabbled in most disciplines including electrics... Seems you are of the same era - Good luck with the foamie. (Saw a model in your pictures) Like you I am immensely interested in this project. My forte is computers so you guys are way above me when it comes to electronics - but I am learning . Enjoy the moment

G'Day UFO
Thankyou for your perusal and comments
From past experience I have found that tooo many screw connections are undesirable so that could be my problem so today I rebuilt the part of the circuit that handles the mosfets and transistors and rewired it so as everything is exposed and you can see where everything goes.
I left the Voltage regulator and the 555Oscillator as they were.

I also drew a diagram showing the placement of the parts as I see them from your Happy Motor Diagram and diagram of your connections to mosfets etc.

I found now on 3 occasions I replaced the ON/Of Switch when I put the switch in the Bat negative to switch on/off it worked once and then would not switch off even though when I disconnected it from the circuit the DMM showed that is was apparently OK because when I switched it OFF there was no continuity and when I switched it on there was continuity

The diagran and photos are here
http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...happyMotor.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/REbuild2.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/REbuild3.jpg

http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/...s/REbuild1.jpg

When I switched it on There was no response and after a few moments I used the thermometer and everything was cold EXCEPT the coil 50Deg C
The coil is one I had 5/.8mm Filar litzed 583 foot long the Ohms are measured 1.32

I am sure the Mosfets blew because I tested with an in circuit tester for transistors and they were dead.
I just do not seem to be able to figure out what is wrong

The wire colors are so as they are what I have on hand

Please How can I test with out switching it on
Kindest regards



Still trying

Hello Ian,

I see something wrong at the 100 or 10 K Ohms Resistor?

It should ONLY GO to 330 resistors, according to drawing and pic's you are shorting Oscillations with Ground Source (-)

Take a look at Diag below...

Question, are you replicating My Circuit or other?...cause I have 100 Ohms there not 10 K...


Let me know


Regards

Ufopolitics


Ian,

Disregard this message...You've Got it all right, what I was pointing out...my bad Sorry!!

Attached Images

Kogs_HAPPY_Motor.JPG (66.0 KB, 43 views)

Good day Ian
I think this will make your circuit compatible with UFO's diagram. KOG's more happy motor.

Hello Larry,

I do not recall a 15K Resistor there, between ground and 330 resistors to gates..?
I Bias Gate by individual (per Mosfet) 47K...and I see Ian has them there. So, I don't think it is necessary there...again, correct me if in further posts it was a patch to mine...
I just found out Torpex uses this 10K...In his circuit...

I DO APOLOGIZE, YES I DO HAVE THAT 15 K RESISTOR!!

So, what Ian is missing is the 100 Ohms from 555


Regards


Ufopolitics

This is your circuit isn't it?

LOL...Yes Larry it is...read my "edit" above...
Sorry, I have been rotating too many motors...

And now I see the 100 Ohms coming out of leg 3 of 555, on Oscillator Board...So...Ian have it fine then...

Sorry I did see your edit after I posted.

I got my 10 turn pots today so now I can make very fine adjustments on frequency and duty cycle.

Hi all
Has anyone ever tried using this for multifilar winding. This is 16 wires X 100', but it is only 28 AWG. I have more than 400 feet of it. Thoughts come back 10 4?

Regards
Larry

Hello Ian,

I have been over and over your circuit and after all my wrong assumptions and diagnoses...I found You have done an excellent job there!!
So, it must be something pretty minor going on there...And after re-reading all your previous posts with your readings ...We could say that if the oscillator and regulator are just working fine, then you should concern on checking your Mosfet's Board...and all cables that join boards to boards...grounds, positives and signaling wires, looking for bad or poor contacts...even your pot could be checked separated from circuit...measuring resistance as you dial up...etc,etc.

With reference to Positive (steady hooked a meter to Pos(+) check for negative (earth,grounds) (-) all over the whole thing, including Drain output.
Then do it from Ground reference...check all signals when leaving board to points of destination...and so on...that would give you an idea, even if it would be a cable broken inside(very odd, but possible).

Regards and let Us know...We are all anxious to hear you screaming that it already worked out!!


Regards


Ufopolitics

Yes UFO, he will be screaming. And maybe for the first time in a long time I will be happy to hear a grown man scream. Ian has worked so hard on this and we are all keeping our ears to the wind to hear when he has success.
Good luck today and may the force be with you. Oh, and with your circuit.
Dana